Building future-ready workforces

Allen Dorsey:
In today's episode, I sit down with Nous Group principal, Anita Sarris, to explore what it takes to build organisations where people can do their best work. We explore the power of culture, the importance of thinking beyond workforce numbers to capability, and why the distinctly human qualities of empathy, creativity, and connection may become our greatest strengths in an AI-driven future. Grab your coffee and let's jump in. We are so excited because we are joined today by Anita Sarris, who's a principal in our Perth office, who is really passionate about designing progressive work environments that allow people and organisations to thrive. Anita has great experience across resources, energy, and government, but she's particularly interested in helping organisations and industries define the future of work and build the workforce and culture they need for long-term success. But outside of all that, she's also a lover of film, music, and yoga.

Is that all true, Anita?

Anita Sarris:
That's right. Yes. When I can find the time, I do enjoy those things.

Allen Dorsey:
Yes. It's tough to. We're keeping busy this time of year, I think. So I think, Anita, maybe we start with the basics. When you say workforce planning, organisational performance, what does that actually mean?

Anita Sarris:
Well, if we take organisational performance, which I guess is the sort of broad description of all the things that I do, it's basically all the components that make up an organisation and the extent to which those work together to really support the best delivery of work and really enable an organisation to achieve its goals. So that's everything from your organisational structure, your leadership, systems and processes, culture, capability, engagement. And to me, it's ultimately about people and how we create the conditions within an organisation to help people do their best work.

Allen Dorsey:
And like you said, it's broad, it's a lot of things to think about. So I'm curious what drew you to this space in the first place? What is it about people and organisations that continues to be really interesting to you?

Anita Sarris:
I guess I've always had an interest in people and why they do the things that they do. And so I think that led me to study psychology, and then that continued to lead me down this path of what is really organisational psychology. I guess there are two reasons that I love the work that I do. One is because, if you think about it, everything that we need to achieve within organisations as a society all the great government policies, corporate strategies, infrastructure development, everything that we need to do relies on having the right people and relies on people to do that work. And so I think that's really fascinating and really exciting, to be able to influence that to ensure that we've got people with the right skills doing the right things to achieve all of that. I think probably the other reason that I'm quite passionate about this work is that for most people, work is a really significant part of our lives.

We spend a lot of time at work. We get a lot of esteem from the work that we do. And if I can help make work better for people, for individuals, then I think that's pretty exciting.

Allen Dorsey:
Yeah. It sounds like a perfectly aligned position for you, with that kind of love of people and especially how they work and how that impacts their overall life. And yeah, it all comes down to people, all of those really big things that you've said. So I wonder, what do you think organisations sometimes overlook when they're thinking about their workforce?

Anita Sarris:
There's always a tension between solving immediate challenges and thinking a little bit more long-term about people and workforce needs. And that's a challenge and a tension I see in almost every organisation that I work with. Some organisations do this really well, but I think it's a challenge for many. And I think what I would love to see is truly strategic, long-term workforce planning to have more of a focus. So I think when we take a short-term view, then we end up defaulting to more reactive solutions, whereas trying to maintain a longer-term view of what are we going to need in the future and what are the things we need to do now to help us get there, I think is really important.

But probably the other topic that I'm really passionate about is culture. And I think sometimes culture is a bit of an afterthought to organisational transformation, organisational strategy. Some organisations find themselves with such entrenched cultures that it's difficult to know where to begin to try and change that. The organisations that I've seen do this really well don't rely on large-scale cultural transformations every five years, but they're always constantly tweaking and refining their culture and making sure that it's aligned with their strategy. And I think it's a hard thing to get right, but I've seen the power of that when it's done well.

Allen Dorsey:
And so when we think about culture, so many things would have an impact on that, I imagine. So how much does the way that you really design an organisation shape how people behave, how they work together, how that influences culture?

Anita Sarris:
Look, it has a huge impact. I think of it as all the little things, all the conditions we create in an organisation, that signal to people what's expected and what's upheld in terms of behaviours. I think that these things all need to work in harmony — making sure that you're signalling to people what's important and you're creating the conditions for them to be able to do that as well. So it all has a huge impact. I think a pitfall often is that people think that focusing on organisational structure as part of organisation design will in itself change the culture and the way that people work. And I see that often — that you can change the organisational chart and it actually doesn't change the way that people do things day to day. So I think having a broader view of organisation design, and considering all the levers, has absolutely a huge impact on culture.

Allen Dorsey:
That's really interesting. I love that idea of signalling what's important, and also perhaps it's easy to fall into that oversimplification of "if we just change the structure, it'll be fine and it'll all work out" but actually there's a lot to think about. So if we start putting all of that together, what does a really good organisation actually look like from a people perspective, and how would you help an organisation work out what good looks like for them?

Anita Sarris:
Yeah, it's a great question. I think that, look, there's no one good type of organisation. It ultimately comes down to what are the things you're trying to achieve as an organisation, and therefore what sort of DNA do you need to have as an organisation to be able to do that really well? I think it's about starting from the very top of the pyramid in terms of what's your purpose, what's your strategy, what are you here to achieve? And then working from there to really think about what are the conditions within the organisation that we need to create the structure, systems, processes and then what do we really need out of our people, so capabilities and culture and engagement. And I think if all of those things are aligned, then that's a great start.

Allen Dorsey:
And you mentioned capability. So when we're looking at workforce planning and thinking about the future, it's maybe easy to think about it just in terms of a numbers game, but I wonder what's the difference when you start to really look at it through that capability lens, like you mentioned?

Anita Sarris:
The capability lens really puts a focus on how is the nature of our work going to evolve, and therefore what do we need to be great at as an organisation in the future? And that's a very different question to how many people do we need in what roles and at what times. That's important too, absolutely. But if we only think about number of people in the roles as they're defined today, it can constrain our thinking to how work is done today. And we know that work is evolving constantly. There are lots of disruptive forces the energy transition, AI these things will have a huge impact on how work gets done and what are the sorts of capabilities and skills that organisations need. So I think yes, having a clear view of, in the interim, how many people do we need doing what sort of roles, is really important. But maintaining a broader view of what do we need to be great at as an organisation now and into the future, I think, is a much more strategic way to think about it.

Allen Dorsey:
Yeah. So then it's interesting you mentioned the future, and obviously all of those huge disruptors that we've been talking about a lot, I mean particularly AI. From your perspective, what should we be thinking about when it comes to the role that humans are going to continue to play in the workforce?

Anita Sarris:
Yeah, so it's a really fascinating topic. I think there's lots of conversation, a lot of people are speculating about what AI means for work. I think the truth is we really don't know, and the pace of change makes it very hard to predict what impact that's going to have on work in five or ten years from now. But there's certainly a range of scenarios that we need to consider. I think what holds true in all of those scenarios is that there's always an important role for humans to play. And I think that it shines a light on the things that we bring that are uniquely human. I think this is how we engage with each other, how we influence stakeholders, empathy and understanding what are the needs of our stakeholders and customers. I think creativity and knowledge creation these are all things that are inherently human that I don't think AI will replace, and I think they'll become an even more important part of the work that we do in the future.

Allen Dorsey:
So if we get this right, with all of these disruptors if we're really saying, "We've got this, we've really thought this through and we really feel like we've got this nailed, we're getting this right" what do you think the future looks like for people in work?

Anita Sarris:
My perhaps idealistic view is that if we get it right, I think it frees up people to focus much more on the higher-order work that we do and the higher-order things, which I think is really exciting. It means it makes work more interesting, more fulfilling. And I also hope that it makes us more productive, that we're able to be a bit less consumed by work as well. Perhaps I would love to see a future probably quite a long way from now where there's more time for life outside of work and more time for some of those higher-order pursuits, in work and beyond.

Allen Dorsey:
Oh, what a lovely vision. Fingers crossed we keep heading towards getting it right that sounds like a wonderful place to be. We always end every episode because I am thinking about my book list for the year do you have a great book recommendation, Anita?

Anita Sarris:
I do. And perhaps in line with that idealistic note, I read a book last year called Mermaid Singing by Charmian Clift, and it's a true story about a journalist couple that moved from London to an island in Greece and studied the sponge divers. I just found it beautiful, and very funny in the way that it described island life and Greek culture in the 1950s. Mermaid singing is a bit of a euphemism for life calling them. So yeah, I really enjoyed that book and would recommend it, great holiday read.

Allen Dorsey:
Yes, I was just thinking, I hear Greek islands and I think, oh yes, doesn't that sound wonderful? We should book a trip immediately.

Anita Sarris:
That's right. Beware you may want to move to the Greek Islands after reading.

Allen Dorsey:
Well, thank you so much, Anita, for this really wonderful conversation. It was great having you.

Anita Sarris:
Thank you very much. My pleasure.